This is one of the famous argument for the existence of God. This is what usually believers use to prove God's existence because it looks sound and because it is consistent with the Big Bang theory (which is accepted by many). This looks like a good argument and I once believed in the Kalam Argument. The structure of the Kalam Argument is this:
1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.
And the one who caused the existence of the universe is God. Therefore God exist.
One of the common objection to this argument could even be asked/raised by a (wondering) pre schooler. Who caused God? God also begs for a creator. If no one caused God, then God can't exist. God must have a creator/cause too. This would lead to infinite causes of gods. This is also how I counter the First Cause argument which is very similar to the Kalam Argument.
Now, even if one would argue or reason out that God is infinite, God would still need a cause as much as the universe. Since God created time and places himself in it, then it follows that God exist at a time prior to which there is no time. Because of this God also needs a cause as much as the universe if "everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence". (Wes Morriston's reply to William Lane Craig's Kalam Argument)
Even if one would assume that God is infinite, this would still lead to infinite regress when he created the universe. Where was God when he created space and time? God must be in some place (be it beyond space and time) when he created space and time. Let us assume that God was in "beyond space and time" when he created the universe. Then, where was God when he created "beyod space and time"? Let us again assume that God was in "another beyond space and time" when he created "beyond space and time". Where was God when he created "another beyond space and time"? And so on... Infinite regress.
Lastly, the Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy states that mass and energy are infinite. Since the universe is composed of mass and energy then the universe, in one way and form or another, is infinite. (I am not really a science guy and I am still currently doing my research on this.)
Thoughts, questions, insights, and learnings of a discreet infidel.
The fool hath said into his heart "There is no God". The wise said it to the world.
About the author
- Discreet Infidel
- Davao City Jail, Philippines
- I'm a man on a journey of self discovery. Along this road, I have to wage a battle against superstition, ignorance and deception. Fighting the forces of false hope and blind faith to pave way for the rise of reason and logic.
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14 comments:
I would like to comment on your fifth paragraph, second sentence, "Since God created time and places himself in it, then God existed at a time prior to which there is no time."
First of all, the universe in which we live, is not composed merely of space, but of a space-time continuum. So "before" the universe began, "before" the big bang, not only was there no space but there was also no time. (Please note that I used quotations marks on the word "before" because how can one say "before" when "before" actually happened when "time" did not yet exist.)
The same applies for the sixth paragraph, second sentence, "Where was God when he created space and time?" Again, we cannot say "where" in a manner that implies space because, as it is said, space was not yet created.
Lastly, as for the Law of Conservation of Energy, it only states that "the total energy in an isolated system remains constant". It doesn't mention anyting about the universe being infinite.
Thanks for the comment.
God exist "at a time prior to which there is no time". God must be at some 'time' and 'place' before he created time and space. I do not know what is the right term for that (beyond space and time). God must have been in some (point) place and time (you can call it heaven if you want) when he created the universe.
Now, you are saying that God is "beyond" space and time right? But can you measure a thing/being beyond space and time? How do you know that a being or entity (God) exist beyond space and time where we can't measure? (Beyond space and time is God’s refuge against the inquiries of the skeptics.)
If you cannot tell me at least 'where' God was when he created the universe, then I say God do not exist at all. God is nowhere but in the theists' minds (just a concept).
Let's imagine for a moment that we are characters in a comic strip. We live in a two-dimensional world composed of drawings and printed words. Then the cartoonist inserts himself into this the comic strip he created by drawing a representation of himself, and this representation interacts with the other characters in the strip.
Now we, being characters in the strip, would ask, "Where was this cartoonist character before this strip began? Was he existing in place outside this two dimensional paper world of ours?"
I think that is a weak (or maybe false?) analogy. It is because there is really no representation of God that interacts with other characters (us). Also, the cartoonists dint make/create his own place where he made the comic strip. Some one (other being) made that place.
@The question. Now the cartoonist must be in some place (and time) when he created the strip. Just like God, he must also be in some place (or point) when he created the universe. Both would lead to infinite regress. Just like when a child asks "Who made my father?". That question can't be answered because it would lead to infinite regresses of causes (which would lead to God and to gods [causes of God]. infinite regress.).
Let's try to focus on the analogy itself and not confuse the discussion with the introduction of infinite regress (we can discuss that at another "time" LOL). My comic strip analogy merely states that the characters living in the two-dimensional paper world made of drawings and printed words have a creator living in a four-dimensional space-time universe. Now it's beside the point that the cartoonist didn't create the world in which he existed before he created this comic strip or that he himself had his own creator (who knows, God might have his own creator, another being, but that doesn't invalidate the position that WE have a creator). What I'm simply saying is that he existed in a different dimension incomprehensible to the cartoon characters.
Now where was God before he created our four-dimensional universe? Perhaps in another dimension beyond space and time? Now this is a metaphysical question and cannot be answered by scientific observation, but do you really think this is a totally illogical idea? (Again, let's try stick to the logic and applicability of the analogy and reserve infinite regress for later discussions.)
Again, the analogy is a weak one. We can simply identify where the cartoonist is while you can't identify where God is (when created the universe and now).
Now the Creator cannot really exist if that Creator don't have a creator. We cannot really put aside Infinite Regress here because that is one of the major problem of the Kalam argument, First Cause, and Cause and Effect argument for the existence of God. And that is the issue here (you are close to committing Red Herring fallacy here). Remember that your Creator also begs for a creator.
I also noticed that you dint answer some of my previous questions (beyond space and time question). :D
We can identify where the cartoonist is, but can the comic book characters identify where their creator (the cartoonist) is?
As for infinite regress, I wasn't questioning that. In my first comment (which started this discussion), I merely stated the following (next three paragraphs):
I would like to comment on your fifth paragraph, second sentence, "Since God created time and places himself in it, then God existed at a time prior to which there is no time."
First of all, the universe in which we live, is not composed merely of space, but of a space-time continuum. So "before" the universe began, "before" the big bang, not only was there no space but there was also no time. (Please note that I used quotations marks on the word "before" because how can one say "before" when "before" actually happened when "time" did not yet exist.)
The same applies for the sixth paragraph, second sentence, "Where was God when he created space and time?" Again, we cannot say "where" in a manner that implies space because, as it is said, space was not yet created.
If you noticed, I never commented about infinite regression. Am I using the Red Herring here? I don't think so, because while Red Herring means diverting from the issue, I was merely focusing on a particular issue in your article (the non-existence of space and time before the big bang). :)
Ok, btw I never said you committed red herring. I just said you were close to committing one. :)
Since there was no space and time, then how can God exist? Is it even logical to exist w/o space and time? Existence means to exist. Can one exist w/o space and time? How do you know that God exist w/o space and time? (or how do you know that a being (God) exist beyond space and time?) How do you know that GOd exist in a dimension incomprehensible by us?
As you notice, God's existence is boiling down to the unknowable or God-beyond-space-and-time w/c is illogical.
Thank you! :D
I am not saying that I KNOW God existed in another dimension beyond space and time before He created the universe. I am not even saying that I KNOW God exists at all. I was merely doing a mental exercise and coming up with a hypothesis for what there could be beyond space and time (possibly another dimension incomprehensible to us, just as the world in which we exist is incomprehensible to the characters in a comic book). :)
I find it difficult to imagine how large the universe is, what more something beyond space and time. :)
The universe, extremely large continuously expanding as it is, is finite and measurable in terms of light years (actually more like billions of light years). Now what is beyond the universe? Nothing. Or at least nothing in terms of space and time - no matter, no energy, no momentum, and no physical laws and constants that govern them.
One of the problems with the Kalam argument (among many) is that it begs the question. Let's look at the syllogism again:
1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause of its existence.
2) The universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.
4) And the one who caused the existence of the universe is God.
5) Therefore God exist.
Premise 1 has several hidden assumptions, which can be explicated as:
1) There are two types of things:
1a) Things that have pre-existed (no beginning).
1b) Things that have a beginning.
2) All of our current experience with things that have a beginning have always had a cause.
3) Therefore, everything that begins to exist has a cause for its existence.
The problem with these assumption is that it has not been proven. 1a is nothing more than a euphemism for god. Since there is no thing (from a theistic worldview) that has pre-existence other than god, the term does not have a referent other than god. So the argument can be formulated as:
1) There are two types of things:
1a) God.
1b) Things that are not god.
Which would in turn modify the kalam argument as:
1) Everything that is not god has a cause of its existence.
2) The universe is not god.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause of its existence.
4) And the one who caused the existence of the universe is God.
5) Therefore God exist.
Given this blatant question begging, is it any wonder that the kalam argument would have a conclusion that god exists?
Nice. I also read somewhere about vacuum flactuations. But I am not so sure about it if it's already a fact.
All in all, @Jong, God must be in his "own" (not "our" own) space and time when he created the universe. Because he can't exist w/o space and time. That's how I see it. :D
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